[Mistah P]

NOTE: Today (January 30, 2006), I opened this guide and realized that all the formatting went wack. That's probably because the forum upgrade. I'm sorry it's taken so long to fix (even though people seemed to have coped). I fixed the formatting to the extent that I could, and edited a few parts just for better writing. THE CONTENT OF THE GUIDE HAS NOT SUBSTANTIALLY CHANGED. Most of my edits are shown in [brackets]. Thanks for your time (and thanks for finding this ollld guide so helpful over a period of two years).


Pommy's Learning Windmills: common pitfalls and solutions ref guide.

Preface/Notes
I've been reading through the mills forum and it seems to me like 95% of the people are asking the same, or very similar questions, or are having very redundant problems amongst themselves. I've been meaning to write a guide for our crew's site for quite some time, but never got around to it -- now, however, I'm bored, and need something to do, so I'll do it

=P

This reference covers the most common pitfalls I've seen bboys come across - and experienced myself as well - during the windmill learning process. It covers only the *learning* of basic windmills -- not variations (IE: nutcrackers, barrels), nor how to perfect your mills (Crescent already has an excellent guide on that).

The guide is organized in chronological order of problems you're likely to come across -- that is, problems you'd come across early in your learning process are listed first, followed by later problems, and so on.

I AM GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE IN YOUR MIND AN IDEA OF HOW WINDMILLS WORK -- THIS IS NOT A WINDMILL GUIDE, THIS IS A WINDMILL PROBLEMS GUIDE. IF YOU WANT A WINDMILL GUIDE, CHECK THE OTHER THREADS IN THIS FORUM, OR READ SPARKZ' GUIDE OR ANOTHER SIMILAR GUIDE.

PLEASE NOTE that my mills in the video [Which is currently down, sorry] are in NO WAY perfect (or even great, for that matter) .. I do, however, have a pretty complete understanding of the mechanics and physics of mills. You don't have to take my advice if you don't want it, but then, why'd you click on this?

That being said, I'm not responsible if you hurt yourself trying anything suggested, implied, or for that matter related to windmills at all from here. What's suggested shouldn't cause injury, but if you misinterpret it, you might get hurt.

If you want a quick referral point, here are recent (albeit carpet-ized) windmills as of this guide's posting by me:

[Sorry, this is down right now.]

=========================================
Part I: Just starting out

Often, the starting phase of learning a move can be the most difficult. The problem that most people come across during this phase is not having a full understanding of the windmill motion and technique. (I recommend you study windmill clips and read guides in order to improve this understanding)

As a result, one of several things may stop you from being able to link mills:

1. You start from backspin, kick your legs around, turn over, and slam into the ground**
2. You start from handglide, get to your back, and stop.
3. You start from handglide, turn over to your front, lose coordination, and just flop down to the ground
4. You start from handglide, go onto your back, your legs close up/scrape the ground and you can't get cleanly back into the start position
5. You can't collapse and fall off your arm

**This is probably the most common problem for beginners who are not well aquainted with mill schematics

Suggested solutions for aforementioned problems:

1. Don't start from backspin. Learn the concept of the stab and collapse by starting from handglide. This will help you time your swings and turns of your torso. In general, however, the slamming legs problem can be attributed to having the wrong mentality for leg movements; you should imagine rotating your HIPS on an AXIS to your torso, like real windmills do on their towers -- NOT "kicking" your legs forward or backwards. This'll just cause them to drive straight into the ground!
2. KEEP SWINGING AND MOVING. Don't ever get lazy and rely on "momentum". Keep your legs as widespread and stiff as possible (even if it feels like your sweeping one will hit the ground) and focus on continuing. There's no remedy here but practicing and getting a feel for it.
3. This is the somewhat the same problem as 1). First off, make sure you are KEEPING YOUR LEGS AS OPEN AND STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE. Secondly, try to kick the area above your ear on your head with your sweeping (2nd) leg. [example: for CWers, your right leg]. Turn over and remember, CIRCULAR, not FORWARDS or SIDEWAYS or BACKWARDS for BOTH LEGS .. rotate your HIPS.
4. Again .. keep your legs open and swing them the way described above. ALSO: YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR HIPS OFF THE GROUND. This problem is very often attributed to a bad start: WHEN YOU START, YOU NEED TO COLLAPSE ONTO YOUR SHOULDER and roll smoothly across your UPPER BACK. You shouldn't be on your lower back at all -- you stay on your upper back and shoulders through the whole rotation. **Also note the reminder at the end of this guide about sitting up**
5. Read collapse guides. You need to push forward with your fingers facing up and roll onto your shoulder. The collapse has a lot of stuff that I won't go into -- read A GUIDE.

Check the bottom for the video counterpart, which illustrates some of these problems. [Sorry, it's down -- instead, why not look at your own clips and compare them with good clips, and see where you're going wrong?]

=========================================
Part II: "I understand it, I just can't do it!"

You get how everything works but you can't do it. The problem? You're still thinking of the mill in steps. The windmill needs to flow -- it's not "oh I do this first, then this, then this". It's all really one motion (at most - two real motions).

You're getting close to getting them, but not quite. Several likely scenarios:

1. When you come to your stab, your legs droop and your feet touch the ground. You don't SLAM, but you can't keep them from dragging.
2. You can get to your stab and all just fine, but you get stuck there -- you can't seem to collapse again, or keep going for that matter. (This is noted by Mothergoose as the flailing legs syndrome)
3. You fall off your stab as you go for your second round (related to above problem), thus causing you to go on your back, not your shoulders, and/or your leg(s)/ass to hit the ground.
4. You can cleanly get onto your stab and collapse cleanly again .. but you look like a dumbass because it's in a one-two motion and you pause and lose all your momentum when on your stab, causing you to have to "start" again (it's as if you're doing individual mills over and over, rather than "linked" ones)

And, their solutions:

1. You still aren't moving your legs in a circular fashion. Most likely, the problem is that you're going up and down -- as in, when you face up, you "bounce" directly up, then you turn over, and guess what? You come directly down. It's ok to bounce up a little, but don't jump up ten friggin thousand feet (especially for stabbed mills). Also, you could be waiting too long to stab (see below)
2. You're mentally waiting for the stab -- as in, your'e thinking as you're turning over "ok, here comes the stab, here comes the stab..." and it doesn't even cross your mind what to do next until AFTER you feel that elbow drop in your gut -- but by then, it's too late. This is closely tied in with stabbing late; you want to have your stab down as soon as you're 3/4 of the way done turning to your frontside. Make sure your fingers are pointing UP.
3. You're stabbing wrong or late (see above two problems), you don't have the collapse down, or you're trying to go too fast. When you stab, don't stab at a 90 degree angle to the ground -- have your arm at a little LESS than a 45 degree angle, and push forward and try to roll onto your shoulder as soon as your hand touches the ground. REMEMBER TO KEEP YOUR LEGS UP AND CONTINUE ROTATING THEM ON THEIR AXIS. All this should happen AT THE SAME TIME, not step by step. Like I said, windmills should FLOW -- not be "omg i have to do this then this then this"
4. You should actively swing twice during the mill - once when facing down going to facing up, and once when facing up and going to facing down. Most likely, you're only swinging once. Since you have the motion down, you really aren't far - just make sure you have the stab and collapse smoothly, and focus on swinging more, keeping on your upper back/shoulders, and going faster.

=========================================
Part III: General reminders and the video

Some things to keep in mind:

• If you're just starting, learn from handglide. Trust me, it helps.
• Try not to stab for more than 1/4 of a second once you understand and have the motion .. at most 1/2 a second, otherwise, you'll have a lot of problems getting your mills smooth and keeping momentum up -- this can also lead to the getting stuck on stab problem (aforementioned)
• ROLL, NOT SPIN. ROLL. ROLL. ROLL.
• When going over to your frontside, DO NOT SIT UP OR TRY TO ROLL FORWARDS RELATIVE TO YOUR HEAD. I can't stress how important this is; I didn't mention it above, but this is probably the most annoying problem I've seen amongst my friends. WHEN GOING TO YOUR FRONT, TRY LOOKING AT YOUR SHOULDER OR YOUR BICEP. [This is STILL the most common problem I've seen. You really need to try to turn on one spot and not slide/spin on your back or wait or sit up when you go to restab.]
• If you can get through windmills (that is, not slam your legs into the ground), do at least 3 every time you practice. This'll help you get down the motions in "muscle memory" quicker and will improve your form in coming time.
• Take a break between practice sessions. Remember, windmills are not to be learned in a day, or even a week or two (although some people who UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT AND THE MECHANICS get them in very short periods of time). It took me 4 months of screwing around and trying them every 3 or 4 weeks to get the motions, one month of steady practicing to actually get them, and about 2 weeks of practicing every other day or so to "perfect" them. Some people are better at them; some are worse. We learn at different paces.
• Most of all, don't BE LAZY.

And finally, visual aid:
Provided is a video illustrating the more prominent of the listed problems so you can see what I'm trying to describe, and figure out if that's the problem you're having. I offer brief "solutions" in the video, but consult the proper part of this guide for a more complete suggestion as to how to fix the problem.

[This has been down for a while. Look at other people's vids. ] NOTE: the text in the beginning went all shitty, so I've attached what it was supposed to say.

This took way too long to write, so you better be grateful. haha.
Thanks, hope it helps, and peace.
Pommy from sorc

[Mistah P]

Uh sorry here's the attachment


[And *cough* if it's popular enough sticky maybe haha maybe not ..]

[GeNeTiX ViRuS]

nice nice, i just hope they get it clear into their mind


btw and problems anyone?

[Torment]

Very good... I remember these problems i had to overcome by myself by experimenting (I love sounding like an expert i only just recently learned windmill a couple weeks back).

I remember the one where it loks like you try to do individual windmills. I have a recording of me doing that lol.

Nevertheless good job.

[bboy parti boi]

there goes an hour of my life....was it worth it....i suppose so

[Da Noize]

Halleluja! This is very very helpfull. I have a lot of problems with my windmill and I've read good tips in this guide!

I attached a vid with my current windmill. There are many things I do wrong. Wich things do you see? Please give me as much advice as possible...

Mistah P, thanx 4 the guide, it will help many bboys

[Da Noize]

My windmill looks like your second problem in your video guide...

[GeNeTiX ViRuS]

i hope them noobies read through all of it and watch themself practice. It would probably help if they'd understand it clearly. It's pretty long but it's all good

[Mistah P]

Noize: Stab earlier .. turn over to your left when you push off/collapse your stab.

[Mistah P]

To tell you the truth, I actually answered the exact way I would have answered right now in the section in my guide

# You're mentally waiting for the stab -- as in, your'e thinking as you're turning over "ok, here comes the stab, here comes the stab..." and it doesn't even cross your mind what to do next until AFTER you feel that elbow drop in your gut -- but by then, it's too late. This is closely tied in with stabbing late; you want to have your stab down as soon as you're 3/4 of the way done turning to your frontside. Make sure your fingers are pointing UP. # You're stabbing wrong or late (see above two problems), you don't have the collapse down, or you're trying to go too fast. When you stab, don't stab at a 90 degree angle to the ground -- have your arm at a little LESS than a 45 degree angle, and push forward and try to roll onto your shoulder as soon as your hand touches the ground. REMEMBER TO KEEP YOUR LEGS UP AND CONTINUE ROTATING THEM ON THEIR AXIS. All this should happen AT THE SAME TIME, not step by step. Like I said, windmills should fuckin FLOW -- not be "omg i have to do this then this then this"

[S1LENCE]

nice nice

[bboy tips]

Finally, an answer to my prayers. This covers about everything anyone ever needs to know.

[WRX_breaker]

[COLOR=sky blue]this guide will help alot to people out there[/color]

[GeNeTiX ViRuS]

yeah it better, yeah and if you illiterate noobs dont look at it for the heck of it... be sure to post up your damn problems so that i can try to help you

[Mistah P]

Oooh! Ooh! Me too!