[B-Boy Ryouko]

Okay, I am not sure if this fits in this forum or not, but if not, just move it.

I keep reading on these articles on writing/graffiti art that say something to the order of, "...if you aren't willing to get caught at some point and possibly do time, don't get into graffiti," well, I mean, I am by no means any expert on hip-hop culture, but since when did doing writing illegally become a necessity of being a writer?? From my understanding, when writing/graffiti art began, it was started by kids who had no other way to express themselves, wanted other people to see their work, came from poor family lives, were angry at the world, etc...which resulted in their doing their work illegally on public walls and buildings. They didn't care or maybe even disliked a lot of the buildings they did their work on (the owners of the buildings I mean), they wanted people to see what they were saying, and where better to put one's work then in public areas for people to see it, they had no other place to put their work, etc...so thus the beautiful art of writing became an illegal form of expression as well, since these works were put on public buildings.

This has resulted though in a lot of kids and people seeming to think that to be a writer, one HAS to do it illegally like that. Says who? Those people who created the art had reasons for what they did. If you are a person coming from middle-class America, who grew up in a strong family, have no real reason to hate the world, etc...there is no reason for you to go around vadalizing other people's property like that.

I have read some people on various sites say stuff like, "I don't care if graffiti is illegal or not, my friends and I do it all over the place, on buildings, bridges, etc...it is @$@#$@! cool!" These kids are probably from decent lives and just don't give a crap that they are messing up other people's property, and they have no reason to. They think they are following hip-hop culture, when in reality doing something like that goes against the very ideals hip-hop was based on. Hip-hop is about creativity, not vandalism. Vandalism just was an off-shoot of it in certain instances, for certain people who had their own reasons, but the average person doesn't have any reason for the vandalism part.

The Mono Lisa may be a work of art, but that doesn't mean I want it painted on the side of my house or City Hall. Same goes for many people and writing. I myself come from a poor family, but I don't have any reason to literally hate the world or anything or just not care. I love the artwork of graffiti and writing, I think it is awesome how people can create such masterpieces, but that doesn't mean I am going to incoporate going out and putting works on public areas illegally just because I want to be a writer. If I want a wall to paint on, I will get permission for an area, or just use some big mural or something that I own myself.

Just my opinion on the subject.

[Kamshaft]

You make it sound like it's alright for only certain people to do.

[Pop N Jay]

first off, this should be in the graffiti forum.

second of all, the culture has evolved and become just that; a culture. you can't very well disregard the time, effort and risks people have dedicated to the art form because you don't think it's right to paint on somebody else's building. to be a writer means to put in work. it's much, MUCH easier to stand in front of a legal or commissioned wall in the middle of the day with all the time in the world to bust a piece than to throw down a hot piece in a heaty spot. most people who partake in graffiti do so illegally; to do something toher than that is to classify yourself under the same title when you are doing something completely different.

thirdly, graffiti isn't only about art, it's about the culture. part of the culture is getting ups. always will be. can't call yourself a writer if you don't have ups, because having ups is part of the definition of being a writer.

might as well call yourself a muralist, an aerosol artist or a graffiti-inspired artist, but there is NO way you will be acknowledged amongst the graffiti community as a writer without putting in illegal work. it's a defining aspect of being a writer.

[Desi Boogie]

So, wait a minute, let's hypothesise for a second.

If it was made legal to do graffiti in pretty much any place, does that mean that as a culture, graffiti would then be defunct? (rofl, what a pun)

Think about it, even though it is likely never to happen, doesn't it seem weak that you're asserting an entire culture rests its validity on the fact that it is done illegally?

I can understand where you're coming from Jay, but it seems kinda strange to me from another perspective.

Peace

[GraffitiMachina]

Originally Posted by bboyjz

So, wait a minute, let's hypothesise for a second.

If it was made legal to do graffiti in pretty much any place, does that mean that as a culture, graffiti would then be defunct? (rofl, what a pun)

Think about it, even though it is likely never to happen, doesn't it seem weak that you're asserting an entire culture rests its validity on the fact that it is done illegally?

I can understand where you're coming from Jay, but it seems kinda strange to me from another perspective.

Peace

Yes, it would be defunct. Graffiti writing is such that unless you are out there risking your skin for your art, you aren't a writer.

Where would the risk be if everything was legal? It's all about becoming famous and getting your name up there depsite it being illegal and cops wanting a piece of you.

[B-Boy Ryouko]

If this belongs in the Graffiti forum, move it there; the reason I put it here was because I thought maybe only things relating to the actual artform of graffiti went in the Graffiti forum, whereas more "philosphical discussions" on the legality of parts of hip-hop and all that would go here.
The problem for me is I agree with both viewpoints. It isn't right to paint on someone else's building, IMO, even if that is part of the writing culture. However, I can see that you can't get any credit in the culture without doing that. I can see that it really shows skill to put up a real work of art in a heaty spot, under time constraints and pressure, but I also think it is a good way to ruin one's life if you are caught; unless you really don't have much to lose, I'd say remain a graffiti-inspired writer or aerosol artist. You can be a martial artist who trains hard all the time, that doesn't mean you literally have to grab a sword or knife and go pick a fight with some thugs somewhere.
Kamshaft, it isn't that I think it is okay only for certain people to do it, but I think it is incredibly stupid for a lot of people to do it because those people could just be throwing their life away in the end by getting caught by the cops because they want to become a famous writer. It isn't like one is spreading messages of freedom in an evil "1984"-like society. I mean if one wants to do it and is very dedicated, then go for it, one could say climbing to the top of Mount Everest just to say you reached the top is incredibly stupid as well, but if you want to do it, go for it, same with writing I guess. But a lot of good people out there would be appreciative if it wasn't done on their building, so I'd at least try to take into account the owner of the wall/building one was writing on. Otherwise, the Writing culture will remain one that isn't really based on any solid grounding, because there is no reason to do it accept for wanting to be famous and have cred.
I wouldn't call someone a coward though if they love graffiti artwork, but don't want to go out and do it illegally for fear of being caught, they just might love the artform and just not want to get any bad reps with the cops (it looks really bad on a job application if you graduate college with a good degree and then it shows you were arrested for putting big mural somewhere). I'd be perfectly content with just being a graffiti-inspired aerosol artist.
I also think as long as one is secure in their art skill, they shouldn't need to go out and do it illegally (this is just my opinion, though). Sort of like with computer hacking, if one is secure in their skills, and knows they are capable of breaking into tough systems, they shouldn't have to go and break into systems illegally just to prove themselves to others (one can argue however that in order to be secure in one's skills, one must do it illegally at least once).
I also think it kind of goes against the original ideals of the hip-hop culture, in that hip-hop was started as a way to keep people out of trouble, and to express creativity, so that they wouldn't get into trouble in the first place.

[Pop N Jay]

i disagree with much of what you just said.

what's this about being "secure in you art skill"? have you ever considered that some people don't paint for others, some people write for the rush, the feeling, or just plain knowing that they made a mark on society.

KNOWING you can throw up a sick piece illegally isn't enough for true writers. it's like KNOWING you could be the best hockey player, martial artist, whatever, and not doing it.

secondly, any true writer knows and considers the consequences of writing. sure, some kid might get caught with a sharpie in his hand and a tag on a bus seat, but anybody who goes out, bombs hard, truly aspires to king status - knows what they risk. graffiti, is, by essence, illegal.

and graffiti has grown out of the hp-hop subculture and formed it's own niche in terms of being established as a subculture. i don't think anyone can argue against that anymore.

[Hektik-J]

graffiti isnt only part of the hiphop culture there's loads of writers who dont even like hip hop. or the hip hop culture. that doesnt make them any less of a writer. but if you were looking at them and their culture and views. that kinda kills your arguement bout it being against the hip hop culture.
oh and daim is known as a writer in the writer community even though he only does legal stuff. when i get older. im gonna paint. bomb shit daily y'know. i know what it'll do to my chances of jobs and my future but quite frankly i dont give a shit. all the more reason not to get caught. it wont waste my life. just add to it.

[Pop N Jay]

Originally Posted by Hektik-J

it wont waste my life. just add to it.

oh, and ryouko, i'm curious to know how long you've been interested in graffiti. i ask that mostly because i know a lot of toys struggle with this question until they seriously start to become immersed in the culture, or fall off, whichever happens first.

[iomek]

patients patients Ryouko.. 'If this belongs in the Graffiti forum, move it there' we know how to do our jobs, but we can't be modding 24/7..

i would argue, as i do love a good argument, but seeing as this topic has been discussed a few thousand times i think its best if i stay out..

[B-Boy Ryouko]

Hektik-J, any involvment with the police over something conside illegal will come back to bite you later on, especially in this day and age. Though I have to agree with you Pop N Jay, you're right, for a true writer, knowing they can do such work probably wouldn't be enough for them. I wasn't aware that Graffiti/Writing has evolved into its own subculture that is somewhat separate from the Hip-Hop culture, even though it is still considered part of it. Hektik-J, by saying it "goes against the Hip-Hop culture," what I meant was that Hip-Hop from my understanding was supposed to be about keeping away from getting into trouble and utilizing one's creativity and energy to be productive and make themself into a productive person; by writing on walls illegally, yes, you are being creative, but the Writer is more just out for the fame and thrill of it (not that there's anything wrong with that, but it could get them in trouble with the law), they are not really doing any good for themself or society, because at most they will put up nice artwork, and worst, they will end up in jail.

I've been interested in graffiti for about the last four years, but never got into it. I do plan to get into Graffiti-inspired art, though. If there's any legal way to become a Writer, I will look at that, but if it must be done illegally, I wouldn't do it. For me, I like Graffiti for the beauty of it, not for the thrill of putting up a sick piece in a quick amount of time, so not bombing walls isn't a problem for me.

Iomek, I didn't mean to seem as if I had the attitude of: "Look, if this belongs in the Graffiti forum, move it there now, otherwise, just shut-up"------I did NOT mean it to sound like that is what I meant by saying move it to the Graffiti forum. I just meant, literally, if it belongs in the Graffiti forum, just move it there when you get the chance. Didn't mean to appear rude or anything.

Also, I didn't mean to rehash some old argument that's been discussed nine million times before or anything. If there are already a few long threads on this very topic, I didn't mean to start up another one; I wasn't aware it was discussed so much. Thanks for the conversation though

[qubixrube]

you can write graffiti in a book
but you cant be a writer with just a book.

[Ground Control]

the entire essence of graffiti art lays in the foundation of the fact that it's illegal. you make it sound like back in the day kats were only paintin on trains and shit because that's the only choice they had, cuz they were poor urban youth trying to get their art seen. the entire point to graffiti art was the art that nobody wanted to see, to get ur name up in as many places as u can, to get as big as u can, all while evading the law..from the beginning. if graffiti was legal, 3/4 of the people doing it today, and even doing it back then wouldn't be doing it. they weren't just getting their art out, they were rebelling against a system. you also have to realize, a lot of writers don't do this shit for other people to see...they do it for other writers to see.

its tough to understand if you're not a writer or not involved with the culture i guess.

[B-Boy Ryouko]

I wouldn't say that, it's understandable, but I think it goes against the ideals of Hip-Hop culture with regards to how Hip-Hop is supposed to be about keeping out of trouble. But that's sort of what I meant, they were rebelling against a system because many of them were poor urban youth. If you are raised in a good setting and thus really have no reason to rebel against the system, then I don't see the point in doing it unless you are out to get other Writers to appreciate your work. There are other ways to express your creativity. Hip-Hop isn't supposed to inspire people to start breaking the law just because they think it is a cool culture to get into, but to start being productive. The ideals of Hip-Hop should more inspire people into other artforms as well, not just to start bombing areas because "that's Writing."

I can understand if someone really thinks it over and truly loves Writing and makes the conscious decision to start Writing with regards to the fact of what they are doing, however, there could be a lot of 14 year-olds from nice lifestyles (good family, nice neighborhood, etc...) out there who are just getting into Hip-Hop and don't fully understand it and just decide to start bombing areas without taking into consideration the repercussions of what they are doing. Those kids have no reason to bomb any area, as they may not even know if Hip-Hop and Writing are what they truly love, or if it is just a phase. They thus end up breaking the law and possibly getting themselves into trouble with the police over something that they may not even care that much about later on in life.

I can understand if one loves Writing and is very passionate about it and its culture and all that, but a lot of young kids aren't and don't know they aren't until later on when the phase passes. Those kids have no reason to rebel against the system or anything. They could have plenty of reason to get into aerosol art that is what Writers do, but the only reason they would have to get into Writing itself would be if they just truly love it, the whole thing (bombing areas with masterpieces in record time, etc....). By saying Hip-Hop is about creativity and becoming a productive person, and then making it sound as if people need to go down the illegal route by bombing illegally, goes against those ideals of Hip-Hop. Even if one is a great Writer, unless they had any reason to revolt, they really have no reason to do it except because they love it.

For smart people who think it through, that is fine I guess, but a lot of younger kids who get deeply influenced by certain things can end up messing up their life over something they aren't passionate about in the end.

[Pop N Jay]

it takes YEARS to make a dent in the city. YEARS. you don't rack up huge dollar amounts of damage by writing for a month.